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amado1 Source
What main Media Texts (TV Shows, Comic Books, Video Games, Cartoons, Anime/Manga, Movies, Other) would you say, you are a fan of?
Ohhhh I just know this is gonna be a fun one, I love ranting and raving.
I'd say FIRST OF ALL that my usual form of fandom is to get really into a particular actor, watch everything he's in, and then pick out my favorites and settle down in those fandoms. It's not like a hard-and-fast rule but it's often the case. So my main fandoms right now are Star Trek: TNG and Gargoyles (for Jonathan Frakes and Keith David), The Deer Hunter (for Christopher Walken), Twin Peaks (for Kyle Maclachlan), and Our Flag Means Death (for Con O'Neill). For older fandoms, I have an abiding love for Once Upon a Time, Ravenous, Trainspotting, and Stargate Universe (all for Robert Carlyle), Star Wars, especially Thrawn, Hannibal, and The Terror.
Have you ever created any fan produced content (E.g. Fan fiction, Fan art, fan videos, fan wikis, etc)? If so, what prompted you to do this and what did you hope to achieve?
Lots of fanfics, some meta, some comics, and maybe one or two fanvids back in the day. With fanfics, I'm usually prompted to do it because I see a queer reading that isn't explored in canon, and I just want to explore it. But I also love hurt/comfort and whump, so there's usually a heavy dose of that too. More than wanting to see two characters bone, I want to see one character cry.
Do you engage with fan produced content? If so, what form does it take and why and where do you engage with it? E.g. writing a fan fiction on fanfiction.net to explore an alternate ending to a TV series?
I really like reading fanfic, though I don't do it as often as I used to. I mostly use AO3 and old ink-and-paper zines. I'm definitely enjoying the current era of longform fandom meta video essays on YouTube, and I probably engage with that more than anything. For Stranger Things, I've written a few fics but never read any, and recently I got converted into shipping Byler thanks to YouTube essays.
What do you think is the appeal of fan produced content?
It fills a hole that isn't filled by canon or by mass-market media in general. Polished, published work is often a bit restrained, it's not very indulgent. If you want grotesque whump or gushy hurt/comfort, you've got to find indie writing. For a long time this was also true of gay smut. Nowadays you can find that easily, BUT you can't often get it alongside, like, the slow-burn build-up that comes with shipping two characters for the length of a seven-season TV show. All you get is one quick book to introduce you to the characters, establish their personalities, and maneuver them into boning. So there's still a roaring audience for fanfic.
Are you a member of an online forum dedicated to a particular object of fandom (celebrity, film/TV series, etc)? Why did you join and what has your experience been like?
I'm lowkey obsessed with Jamie Campbell Bower again. Loved him in like 2007 when Sweeney Todd came out, but then he was constantly in franchises that weren't to my liking. He's in Stranger Things now as a main villain, so I've joined the subreddit devoted to him to try and get more videos and photos. I'm also in a Conclave server which I despise, and a Thrawn server which I barely check lmao. Same for Gargoyles and Star Trek.
Have you ever encountered any online abuse when you have been on an online forum? Can you recall a specific incident?
I've been the abuser and the abusee. My most embarrassing memory is when I joined a Phoenix Wright fan-forum as a pre-teen. Trials & Tribulations had just come out and I was totally devoted to the bad guy, Godot. I encountered a fan on court-records.org who was similarly devoted to Dahlia, a character who poisons Godot, and I got into a rip-roaring fight with her. She was totally normal and reasonable, and I was a furious 12-year-old aghast that anyone could like the character who poisoned my fave.
More often, as an adult, I've had to be the one dealing with annoying younger people, and occasionally annoying older people. I used to be in a Thrawn server run by a 20-something kid who loved bullying other writers. One time they were publicly going after an author they didn't know, disparaging their work and getting very personal with their insults. I spoke up to defend the author, and this kid twisted it into, "Seth believes that people can secrete lube from their asses." Which...was not what I said... I just said that lots of people have anal sex without lube and don't experience any discomfort with it, so it's weird to criticize someone for writing that trope. For months afterward, this kid would post about me and spread that lie.
What are your views on fans producing and distributing fan created content through the internet? Also what are your thoughts on the potential issues of copyright (E.g. using someone else’s creations in a piece of fan art)?
(This is an old questionnaire.) I'm fine with it, don't see an issue. Only get squeamish with it when money is made, and I guess the double-standard for monetized fanart vs. monetized fanfiction bothers me a little -- but at the same time, I think it's good that artists can make money from it, and I don't begrudge them that. I guess I hope that someday copyright laws will loosen up and fanfic writers can do the same.
What do you think are the good and bad points of online forums and websites that encourage creativity such as: YouTube, fanfiction.net, DeviantART, etc, for those involved in fandom?
The good points are easy: creativity, community, shared love for a fandom, the ability to make real, lasting friends. The bad points ... when I was growing up there was a stereotype that anyone who's "in a fandom" is socially awkward, a weird loser who lacks social skills and isn't pleasant to be around. That stereotype is untrue for the majority of people in fandom, I think. But it is true for a percentage of us, and I think some fandoms attract that type more than others. When you get a lot of them together in the "room," drama is inevitable, and extremely toxic and unpleasant.
Have you encountered or been involved with any instances of spoiling (revealing significant (and usually secret) elements of a TV series, film, book, etc, i.e. spoilers) online? What was the experience like?
I don't care about spoilers, but I have a funny story about this. I was in a certain Star Wars server when the editor of the Thrawn books joined. A new Thrawn book was on the horizon, and the editor would occasionally share sneak peeks with us before they were released to the general public. Ofc he swore everyone to secrecy... or I guess he did, that's what I was told. Well, when the book was finally released, I temporarily left the server because I didn't want spoilers from German readers who got the book 6 hours ahead of the US. While I was gone, the server owner texted me urgently to say that the editor was releasing something really cool, and I just HAD to rejoin to see it. She refused to tell me what it was, and I refused to re-join.
Hours later, Rich (whom I live with, and who isn't in the fandom) texted me a leaked image. It was a painting for the special-edition cover of the new Thrawn book: Thrawn in bondage, beaten up and very pretty. Cool. I shared it with some friends; one of them posted it to Twitter. Rich had seen it on Reddit, so I wasn't exactly the first guy to leak this news. Unfortunately for me, and for several other people, it turned out this was what the editor had released to our server, and the server owner was livid. She pumped me for info on who leaked the image to me, and didn't believe me when I said my brother found it on Reddit. According to her, there was no Reddit post. Well, I don't know! That's what he told me, and I know for a fact he's not on this damn server.
It turned into a major witch hunt. All 12 server members who were in attendance for the editor's livestream were put on trial. People were publicly called out and asked to answer for their actions - imaginary actions. The whole thing was especially frustrating because ... why the hell do y'all think the editor is here to begin with?? He's using us for marketing. He WANTS us to leak info and stir up hype. Be serious.
Do you feel that fans have the right to post spoilers online? Do you think it ruins or enriches the experience of being a fan?
People have a right to discuss the spoilers as soon as they want to. Other people have a valid desire not to see those spoilers. I think, though, that by this point, everyone knows to just avoid the Internet entirely if they really care about spoilers. You can blacklist tags on Tumblr, but God help you if you check your Facebook notifications the night after a new Stranger Things episode is released.
Do you think it is good or bad for fans to have access to celebrities and creative teams through the internet? (E.g. following writers/directors on Twitter) Do you follow a creative professional online, and for what reason? (E.g. writer, actor, musician, etc)
Bad. I think it's fine to join fan communities, but I never follow the celebrity themself. I don't want to know what they think. This goes for authors I like as well as actors. Sometimes I'm out of the loop and don't understand why the whole fandom hates Dan Simmons, but that's okay.
Have you ever been involved with signing a petition online or become part of an online campaign? Can you explain your motivation behind doing so?
Not for a fandom. A few of my associates (not really friends) were involved with the Save Our Flag Means Death campaign, but I disliked S2 too much to join in.
Do you think that Web 2.0 has given fans a larger say in the creative decisions made for the products of their fandom, and if so, what are your views on it?
Yes... I guess my feelings here are similar to the earlier question, "Do you think it is good or bad for fans to have access to celebrities and creative teams." I think fans might have far more influence now, but it's hard to say whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, or even if the influence is real or imagined. Theoretically, maybe we have more gay rep now because of years of Web 2.0 fans pressuring showrunners. Realistically, I think all we know is that large swathes of fandom think they have influence, and tear themselves apart trying/failing to use that influence.
When I really think about it, I can only come up with two mostly-confirmed examples of fan influence on a creative team: 1) the Game of Thrones showrunners trying to stay ahead of fan theories, and making a worse show because of it. Is that true? I see it parroted a lot but I've never personally seen the source, and I guess I don't really care XD. 2) Timothy Zahn, the writer of Thrawn, has confirmed that he made a conscious effort to include more female characters because of an interaction he had with a female fan at a con. His female characters are genuinely great imo, so that's definitely a positive outcome. But that's definitely an in-person influence, not a Web 2.0 byproduct. Also, the hordes of fans demanding gay rep from Zahn have had no impact on him whatsoever. Most of his early books were published by Christian publishers, so I think he may have some quiet but firm ideas about homosexuality that he's not going to budge from.
Anyway, for the last part of the question, my views on it -- I generally don't approve, I think fans should avoid interaction with creatives in that specific way -- asking for spoilers, demanding changes, showing them fanfiction when it's not asked for. Let them seek out that influence if they want it, but don't bring it to them. IMO it's made fandom, especially the younger side of fandom, rabidly entitled and a bit scary. There've been some posts about this on Tumblr, noting the trend now where shippers expect their ship to become canon and get very angry when it isn't. Along with that has come a trend of @ing creators to discuss the ship, seek confirmation, push for more, etc. I don't think it's morally wrong or anything, but I don't think it's a happy healthy mindset either. I think it just hurts the person making the demands a bit. It gets them riled up and hopeful, and then crushed with disappointment when things don't work out; in the worst cases that disappointment turns into anger, anger turns into harassment.
I think this is likely to happen with Stranger Things, from either the Byler fans (Mike Wheeler/Will Byers) or the Mileven fans (Mike/Eleven). Will is canonically gay and canonically in love with Mike, and there is compelling evidence from Byler fans that Mike may be closeted and may love Will back. But at the same time, Mileven has been THE canon pairing since S1. I think if Byler doesn't turn out canon, the Byler fans are going to go feral. And if Mileven breaks up for good, the Milevens are going to go nuts too, with a heavy dose of already-extant homophobia aimed at Noah Schnapp (Will's actor) and at Bylers in general. Because of the queer element, there's a lot more animosity between these two groups of shippers than there is between the other canon love triangle, Steve/Nancy vs. Nancy/Jonathan.
Just a note on Byler: Before S4 came out, I would've said Bylers are crazy anyway. But before S4, I also firmly believed Will was straight, lmfao. I didn't pick up on ANY of the signs, partially because I hadn't bothered to rewatch the show between seasons. My opinion now is that, IF we believe the Duffer Brothers are good writers, then they're 100% setting up Byler. If we believe they're iffy, shitty writers, then the Byler setup is accidental and not going to amount to anything. I hope we get the former, but my hope is small; I haven't actually been impressed by the Stranger Things writing since S2.
No matter what happens, my favorite character is Henry Creel (Jamie Campbell Bower), not Mike or Will, so I'll be okay XD Eleven is my second-favorite, and then Will; I also generally adore Dustin and Steve, and I earnestly ship Lucas/Max, and I like Mike in certain seasons, dislike him in others. But I've never been a huge fan of Mike/Eleven, and I've actively disliked it since S3, so I'm still rooting for the Bylers.
Fuck it, okay, look, I'm going to talk about Stranger Things. Forget the questionnaire, this is a Stranger Things blog now.
S1: When this came out, it fucking blew my mind. Instant-favorite. And that was shocking to me because I usually only really liked a show if I had a far-and-away favorite character AND someone to ship them with. With Stranger Things, I liked all the characters pretty much equally! I didn't ship anyone, but I liked all the pairings well enough; this was really a fandom-free TV experience for me, I didn't feel there were any holes that needed to be filled. Maybe I liked it so much because it featured small-town rural Indiana, and the Byers were poor. It matched up with my childhood really well, and had the horror elements I love.
S2: Not as good and cohesive as S1, but I still loved it; I think, like Harry Potter 1 and 2, it maintained enough of the initial charm that the holes were easy to overlook. Unlike many viewers, I really enjoyed the episode where Eleven goes on a Chicago adventure and meets other children from the lab. And Will gets so much of the spotlight here, which was surprising and amazing -- from S1, you don't really understand how good of an actor little Noah Schnapp is, he's hardly present.
S3: Worst season by far to me. Part of that is mere prejudice against summer -- my least favorite season. Part of it is a lack of interest in this season's central mystery, and part of it is the seeming character assassination of both Mike and Hopper. Mike in S1-2 is a spunky but gentle kid, a natural leader, emotional and caring. Mike in S3 is a douchebag, frankly. Similar story for Hopper -- in S1-2, he's a gruff but lovable guy, typical heart-of-gold character who makes mistakes but also grows over time. In S3 he regresses for no perceivable reason, loses all his growth from S2. It's done, transparently, to generate conflict between him and Eleven and make his "death" in the finale more of a gut-punch.
S4: Definitely kicked my love of the show back into overdrive. It does so many things correctly that the flaws (and there are many) don't matter to me. 1) It's the first season since S1 to have a compelling, tragic mystery at the center of it all. S1 was Will's disappearance; S2 is the strange supernatural death of Chrissy. 2) It introduces two new characters who are both very likable to me. One is Eddie, a 21-year-old senior and metalhead who gets blamed for Chrissy's death and has to go into hiding. The Satanic Panic theme of his scenes is catnip to me. The other character is Henry, the new big bad villain of the show. Jamie Campbell Bower plays him with an excellent gentleness. 3) Though the show is often categorized as a horror show, this is the first season where it really FEELS like horror. That's because it takes clear inspiration from Nightmare on Elm Street, including a cameo from Robert Englund as Henry's dad. Nightmare on Elm Street was my favorite horror series growing up, so again, catnip to me. And 4) There's a wonderful emotional arc with Max, and Sadie Sink may be the most talented of the child actors, at least at their current ages, so it's pulled off perfectly.
Now S5, the final season, is coming out, and I have to shake off my cool critical persona and admit that I've rewatched Vol. 1 three times and I spend every day whining that I have to wait till Christmas for Vol. 2. I can't even justify it, for the most part -- there were a LOT of bad moments that I cringed and groaned at in Vol. 1! The first time I watched it, I barely even looked up from my phone cuz it couldn't hold my attention. But here I am, longing for more... Worse yet, I've become so obsessed that I spend hours of each day on the Stranger Things subreddits, or watching interviews with the cast on Facebook, or watching Byler fan essays on YouTube.
Hopes for S5: I'm 100% certain that they wouldn't have hired Jamie Campbell Bower to play Henry if they intended for Henry to be a straight-up villain with no redeeming qualities. I'm certain that in Vol. 2 we'll get the sad backstory and the twist that makes us root for him. I'm bolstered by both Jamie Campbell Bower and Noah Schnapp making statements about Henry being "the most misunderstood villain" or generally sympathetic. WEIRDLY I'm in the minority here??? I don't know if I'm insane or if the Stranger Things fandom just skews very young, because most fandom spaces are thoroughly set against the possibility of a redemption arc -- they don't see the HEAVY signs at all. I mean, already, in S4, we got these signs: 1) he felt that his parents were horrible people, so he killed them. We're given a vague reason for this when it comes to his dad, who iirc killed a baby during the war, but the reason for his mom remains secret. 2) we're shown that he is imprisoned in Hawkins Lab, like Eleven; experimented on, like Eleven; and physically tortured (unlike Eleven). 3) He's played by Jamie Campbell Bower.
Now there's also a canon play out on Broadway and West End, with Henry as the main focus. Haven't seen it, but I watched a detailed plot description, and it's screaming, "DON'T HATE THIS GUY." Long story short: 8-year-old Henry disappears for 12 hours, much like Will disappeared in S1. When he comes back, he's troubled and has new psychokinetic powers, plus some mind-reading or emotion-reading abilities. His family is freaked out, they move to Hawkins, Indiana, and Henry comes into contact with some dark force there, which slowly takes him over and enacts violence against innocent animals and people. Henry attempts to fight this dark force off, but fails more and more as the play goes on. Finally, he kills his family under the influence of the dark force and is trapped inside Hawkins Lab, where he's used as an experiment, and his blood is used to create the numbered children we meet in S4, Eleven included.
The only thing I dislike about this play is that it gives Henry a female love interest. Make him gay! Make villains gay again!! I REQUIRE IT. Especially when we're so clearly paralleling Henry with Will. GAY.
Other hopes: I would genuinely flip my lid if Byler became canon. Like I said, I'm a late convert, didn't even think Will was gay until the show made it blatantly clear in S4. And I KNEW certain fans thought he was gay, I just thought they were crazy and had too much faith in the Duffer Bros' writing. Having been proven wrong once already, I was willing to reconsider Byler, and I got fully converted. There are far better apologists for Byler than me -- you can find them easily on YouTube -- but the big hurdle for me to overcome was the idea that the Duffer Brothers are good writing and are intentionally writing Mike as closeted across multiple seasons. The evidence that worked best to change my mind, therefore, was not diegetic evidence from the show but non-diegetic evidence that proved thoughtfulness and intent behind the scenes, e.g. interviews with costume designers, casting agents, etc. -- stuff that showed a great deal of thought WAS put into things, not just by the Duffer Brothers but by everyone involved.
(For example, I'd seen Bylers claiming that Mike's blue shirt in S4 is "Byler proof." Absolutely batshit to me. Their evidence was that his shirt has a sideways triangle over the pocket; the triangle is a queer symbol; and whenever he's in a scene with both Will and Eleven, his triangle-heart is pointing to Will, not to Eleven. Dismissed this completely until I saw an interview with a costume designer saying that she put a triangle on *Robin's* shirt to signify to the audience that she was gay.)
I was also swayed by evidence that *Will* had been intentionally written as gay, and that it wasn't just a last-minute decision because Noah Schnapp came out. The original pitch bible for Stranger Things says it outright in Will's character description; the original script for the middle-school dance in S2 says it again. And I was swayed again when someone reminded me that, in S1, when Will's corpse is pulled from the water, Mike runs home crying and David Bowie's "Heroes" plays. Sue me, I'm always gonna be swayed by David Bowie. It's not even Bowie's version, it's a Peter Gabriel cover... but that got me thinking, because I rewatched S1 this year with Rich and both of us were like, "Why the fuck would they use the Peter Gabriel cover instead of the original." Well, if music is how you defeat Vecna (established in S4) and Bowie is important to Will (established in S1), AND "Heroes" is a Mike & Will song, AND love gives you power (also S4), AND Will loves Mike (S4) ... then Heroes by David Bowie is ofc going to be the perfect song to play when Will has his showdown with Vecna...
See, all of this sounds batshit, don't worry, I know. I've swallowed the Kool-Aid and I'm okay with that. Watching these videos did remind me that I've had nascent Will/Mike thoughts consistently, since S1, and just kind of squashed them because I thought it would never happen. S4 was especially potent for me on the first watch, because there's conflict between Mike and Eleven -- she's upset with him because he can't say, "I love you," and he only manages to finally do so because Will gives him a beautiful painting and confesses his love for Mike ... but secretly. He pretends the painting is actually from El, and disguises his own thoughts and feelings for Mike as *El's* thoughts and feelings. So ... Mike is finally able to tell his girlfriend he loves her ... but only because of the inspiring lovely message that comes from his best friend's heart? Not from Eleven? (<.<) Mike Wheeler, I Know What You Are.
Now for my doubts:
1) As stated earlier, and most obviously, Mike and Eleven have been together since S1. Yes, they've had break-ups, but as far as we know, we're 4 episodes into the final season and they're still together. If Byler is going to become canon, a LOT of shit needs to happen real fast. Mike needs to realize he's gay; Mike and Eleven need to break up; Mike needs to realize he's in love with Will, etc.
2) In S4, there's a scene where Will asks Robin how she knew that her girlfriend Vicki wanted to date. Robin tells him there were signals -- snowballs that became an avalanche -- and Will gets a hopeful, thoughtful look on his face, then later tests out some flirting with Mike. Whether or not Mike responds to this flirting is iffy; in my opinion, nah, not really. Worse, we get a shot of Robin's face during this interaction. She's watching Mike and Will flirt, and she looks sad -- and it prompts her to give Will another speech, this time telling him about her first crush, which went terribly. The girl she liked wasn't even gay, and Robin was heartbroken. She got over it by watching old home videos of herself as a little kid, and was moved by how free and confident she was back then. To me, that reads pretty clearly and depressingly as, "He's not into you, kid, get over it."
Counterpoints to these doubts:
1) 18 months have passed since S4. I mean, in the show, not IRL. We don't know what's happened in those 18 months. We do know that, last season, Will seemed to accept that Mike was straight and didn't love him. He even transformed his own Big Love Confession into a confession from El, and helped repair Mike and El's relationship when he could have easily encouraged Mike to break up with her. Now, suddenly, Will is hopeful that Mike could like him back and is looking for signs, actively flirting with him. Some fans speculate that Mike and El broke up during those 18 months, and the show just hasn't revealed it to us yet. If so, that could speed-run things significantly. Instead of going through a long process of "Mike realizes he's queer -> Mike breaks up with El -> Mike gets with Will" we'd have "Audience realizes Mike and El aren't together -> it's because Mike's queer -> specifically he's queer for Will", and that type of reveal could take all of 5 minutes.
2) Other Byler fans have pointed out that you don't do a slow-burn rejection. If Byler isn't meant to happen, then why are they suddenly establishing that Will has hope, when at the end of S4, he had accepted there was no chance at all? If Will's storyline this season is meant to be, "He accepts that Mike doesn't have feelings for him and accepts himself," then why not start where we left off, with "He accepts that Mike doesn't have feelings for him and is actively encouraging him to be with El," instead of complicating that journey with, "Suddenly for no apparent reason he thinks he has a chance and is trying to sabotage Mike's relationship with El"? Plus, evidently my reading of the Mike/Will + Robin scene isn't necessarily aligned with the script; I haven't looked at the script myself but I've seen other people claiming that Robin's expression is explained in the script, and it's not "sad because Mike is clearly straight," but ... some other thing that I don't remember right now, but leaves room for hope.
All of this hinges on the Duffer Brothers actually being skilled writers, and I'm not convinced of that. Byler believers tend to claim that every supposed flaw in the show is actually a secret Byler hint. In some cases I think they may be right -- but there are plenty of flaws in this show that don't come down to ships. (Hopper's character arc is a big one; generally bad/cheesy dialogue is another, but you can be bad at dialogue and good at overarching plots and character arcs. Another bone I have to pick is that last season, Max was a major character with actual depth and an arc of her own; this season, so far, she's just exposition. Major downgrade.)
When it comes specifically to Mike, though, they may have a point, one that I find really compelling. I'd already noticed that Mike's character changes in S3. That's when he and El officially start dating, and Mike seems to become a douche overnight; this continues in S4 to such an extent that I was shocked Will liked him. How can you be in love with a guy like that? And then Will gives a big speech about WHY he loves Mike, and like ... yes, it described S1-2 Mike perfectly, but Mike hasn't been like that for a very long time...
The Byler theory is that Mike is at his worst when dating El because he's putting on a straightsona. He's not really himself; he's playing the role of a Straight Male according to the 1980s. That's why he's toxic, it's why he ignores his friends and acts shitty to everyone. And, despite his seeming obsession with El, he's still a bad boyfriend ... because he doesn't really love her that way. The way he treats her contrasts sharply with the gentle, caring way he treats Will -- he's awkward and mean to Will when El is in the room, awkward and mean to El when Will is in the room. But when he's alone with Will, he's apologetic and sweet. When he's alone with El, he's ... still awkward, still mean.
I initially put that down to bad writing and even bad acting on Finn Wolfhard's part, which perplexed me a bit because I've always thought he's a really strong actor -- but, admittedly, the teen years are awkward for everybody, and especially for child stars who spent their preteen years onscreen. It's hard to remember how to act when you're going through that self-conscious stage. I wondered if maybe he had less sentimentality for the show than the other child stars, maybe even hated it and therefore wasn't motivated to put in any effort -- and then I was surprised and confused again when I watched some interviews and saw all the child stars unanimously declaring Finn the most sentimental of them.
It's a tough position. As a more-critical-than-average fan, I can't blindly trust the Duffer Brothers. As a Henry fan, I'm more concerned with his character arc than any of the kids, and as an Eleven fan, I don't like her relationship with Mike but can't reallyyyy think of a good place for her arc to go. I think I'm just not a fan of Straight Eleven, full-stop. The Byler ship has great appeal for me, and El/Kali has some appeal as well, but I do unfortunately see S3-5 Eleven as fully straight, not queer at all. Once she grew her hair out it was all Joever.
Anyway, the tl;dr here is that I'm fully down the Byler rabbithole and I'm making it all of youz problem. It feels like a Public Service Announcement: SURPRISE, this Internet friend has been secretly a Stranger Things fan the whole time, and is now even more insane about it. I'm even half-assed plotting a Byler fanfic, and like I said, they're not even my favorite characters T__T
What main Media Texts (TV Shows, Comic Books, Video Games, Cartoons, Anime/Manga, Movies, Other) would you say, you are a fan of?
Ohhhh I just know this is gonna be a fun one, I love ranting and raving.
I'd say FIRST OF ALL that my usual form of fandom is to get really into a particular actor, watch everything he's in, and then pick out my favorites and settle down in those fandoms. It's not like a hard-and-fast rule but it's often the case. So my main fandoms right now are Star Trek: TNG and Gargoyles (for Jonathan Frakes and Keith David), The Deer Hunter (for Christopher Walken), Twin Peaks (for Kyle Maclachlan), and Our Flag Means Death (for Con O'Neill). For older fandoms, I have an abiding love for Once Upon a Time, Ravenous, Trainspotting, and Stargate Universe (all for Robert Carlyle), Star Wars, especially Thrawn, Hannibal, and The Terror.
Have you ever created any fan produced content (E.g. Fan fiction, Fan art, fan videos, fan wikis, etc)? If so, what prompted you to do this and what did you hope to achieve?
Lots of fanfics, some meta, some comics, and maybe one or two fanvids back in the day. With fanfics, I'm usually prompted to do it because I see a queer reading that isn't explored in canon, and I just want to explore it. But I also love hurt/comfort and whump, so there's usually a heavy dose of that too. More than wanting to see two characters bone, I want to see one character cry.
Do you engage with fan produced content? If so, what form does it take and why and where do you engage with it? E.g. writing a fan fiction on fanfiction.net to explore an alternate ending to a TV series?
I really like reading fanfic, though I don't do it as often as I used to. I mostly use AO3 and old ink-and-paper zines. I'm definitely enjoying the current era of longform fandom meta video essays on YouTube, and I probably engage with that more than anything. For Stranger Things, I've written a few fics but never read any, and recently I got converted into shipping Byler thanks to YouTube essays.
What do you think is the appeal of fan produced content?
It fills a hole that isn't filled by canon or by mass-market media in general. Polished, published work is often a bit restrained, it's not very indulgent. If you want grotesque whump or gushy hurt/comfort, you've got to find indie writing. For a long time this was also true of gay smut. Nowadays you can find that easily, BUT you can't often get it alongside, like, the slow-burn build-up that comes with shipping two characters for the length of a seven-season TV show. All you get is one quick book to introduce you to the characters, establish their personalities, and maneuver them into boning. So there's still a roaring audience for fanfic.
Are you a member of an online forum dedicated to a particular object of fandom (celebrity, film/TV series, etc)? Why did you join and what has your experience been like?
I'm lowkey obsessed with Jamie Campbell Bower again. Loved him in like 2007 when Sweeney Todd came out, but then he was constantly in franchises that weren't to my liking. He's in Stranger Things now as a main villain, so I've joined the subreddit devoted to him to try and get more videos and photos. I'm also in a Conclave server which I despise, and a Thrawn server which I barely check lmao. Same for Gargoyles and Star Trek.
Have you ever encountered any online abuse when you have been on an online forum? Can you recall a specific incident?
I've been the abuser and the abusee. My most embarrassing memory is when I joined a Phoenix Wright fan-forum as a pre-teen. Trials & Tribulations had just come out and I was totally devoted to the bad guy, Godot. I encountered a fan on court-records.org who was similarly devoted to Dahlia, a character who poisons Godot, and I got into a rip-roaring fight with her. She was totally normal and reasonable, and I was a furious 12-year-old aghast that anyone could like the character who poisoned my fave.
More often, as an adult, I've had to be the one dealing with annoying younger people, and occasionally annoying older people. I used to be in a Thrawn server run by a 20-something kid who loved bullying other writers. One time they were publicly going after an author they didn't know, disparaging their work and getting very personal with their insults. I spoke up to defend the author, and this kid twisted it into, "Seth believes that people can secrete lube from their asses." Which...was not what I said... I just said that lots of people have anal sex without lube and don't experience any discomfort with it, so it's weird to criticize someone for writing that trope. For months afterward, this kid would post about me and spread that lie.
What are your views on fans producing and distributing fan created content through the internet? Also what are your thoughts on the potential issues of copyright (E.g. using someone else’s creations in a piece of fan art)?
(This is an old questionnaire.) I'm fine with it, don't see an issue. Only get squeamish with it when money is made, and I guess the double-standard for monetized fanart vs. monetized fanfiction bothers me a little -- but at the same time, I think it's good that artists can make money from it, and I don't begrudge them that. I guess I hope that someday copyright laws will loosen up and fanfic writers can do the same.
What do you think are the good and bad points of online forums and websites that encourage creativity such as: YouTube, fanfiction.net, DeviantART, etc, for those involved in fandom?
The good points are easy: creativity, community, shared love for a fandom, the ability to make real, lasting friends. The bad points ... when I was growing up there was a stereotype that anyone who's "in a fandom" is socially awkward, a weird loser who lacks social skills and isn't pleasant to be around. That stereotype is untrue for the majority of people in fandom, I think. But it is true for a percentage of us, and I think some fandoms attract that type more than others. When you get a lot of them together in the "room," drama is inevitable, and extremely toxic and unpleasant.
Have you encountered or been involved with any instances of spoiling (revealing significant (and usually secret) elements of a TV series, film, book, etc, i.e. spoilers) online? What was the experience like?
I don't care about spoilers, but I have a funny story about this. I was in a certain Star Wars server when the editor of the Thrawn books joined. A new Thrawn book was on the horizon, and the editor would occasionally share sneak peeks with us before they were released to the general public. Ofc he swore everyone to secrecy... or I guess he did, that's what I was told. Well, when the book was finally released, I temporarily left the server because I didn't want spoilers from German readers who got the book 6 hours ahead of the US. While I was gone, the server owner texted me urgently to say that the editor was releasing something really cool, and I just HAD to rejoin to see it. She refused to tell me what it was, and I refused to re-join.
Hours later, Rich (whom I live with, and who isn't in the fandom) texted me a leaked image. It was a painting for the special-edition cover of the new Thrawn book: Thrawn in bondage, beaten up and very pretty. Cool. I shared it with some friends; one of them posted it to Twitter. Rich had seen it on Reddit, so I wasn't exactly the first guy to leak this news. Unfortunately for me, and for several other people, it turned out this was what the editor had released to our server, and the server owner was livid. She pumped me for info on who leaked the image to me, and didn't believe me when I said my brother found it on Reddit. According to her, there was no Reddit post. Well, I don't know! That's what he told me, and I know for a fact he's not on this damn server.
It turned into a major witch hunt. All 12 server members who were in attendance for the editor's livestream were put on trial. People were publicly called out and asked to answer for their actions - imaginary actions. The whole thing was especially frustrating because ... why the hell do y'all think the editor is here to begin with?? He's using us for marketing. He WANTS us to leak info and stir up hype. Be serious.
Do you feel that fans have the right to post spoilers online? Do you think it ruins or enriches the experience of being a fan?
People have a right to discuss the spoilers as soon as they want to. Other people have a valid desire not to see those spoilers. I think, though, that by this point, everyone knows to just avoid the Internet entirely if they really care about spoilers. You can blacklist tags on Tumblr, but God help you if you check your Facebook notifications the night after a new Stranger Things episode is released.
Do you think it is good or bad for fans to have access to celebrities and creative teams through the internet? (E.g. following writers/directors on Twitter) Do you follow a creative professional online, and for what reason? (E.g. writer, actor, musician, etc)
Bad. I think it's fine to join fan communities, but I never follow the celebrity themself. I don't want to know what they think. This goes for authors I like as well as actors. Sometimes I'm out of the loop and don't understand why the whole fandom hates Dan Simmons, but that's okay.
Have you ever been involved with signing a petition online or become part of an online campaign? Can you explain your motivation behind doing so?
Not for a fandom. A few of my associates (not really friends) were involved with the Save Our Flag Means Death campaign, but I disliked S2 too much to join in.
Do you think that Web 2.0 has given fans a larger say in the creative decisions made for the products of their fandom, and if so, what are your views on it?
Yes... I guess my feelings here are similar to the earlier question, "Do you think it is good or bad for fans to have access to celebrities and creative teams." I think fans might have far more influence now, but it's hard to say whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, or even if the influence is real or imagined. Theoretically, maybe we have more gay rep now because of years of Web 2.0 fans pressuring showrunners. Realistically, I think all we know is that large swathes of fandom think they have influence, and tear themselves apart trying/failing to use that influence.
When I really think about it, I can only come up with two mostly-confirmed examples of fan influence on a creative team: 1) the Game of Thrones showrunners trying to stay ahead of fan theories, and making a worse show because of it. Is that true? I see it parroted a lot but I've never personally seen the source, and I guess I don't really care XD. 2) Timothy Zahn, the writer of Thrawn, has confirmed that he made a conscious effort to include more female characters because of an interaction he had with a female fan at a con. His female characters are genuinely great imo, so that's definitely a positive outcome. But that's definitely an in-person influence, not a Web 2.0 byproduct. Also, the hordes of fans demanding gay rep from Zahn have had no impact on him whatsoever. Most of his early books were published by Christian publishers, so I think he may have some quiet but firm ideas about homosexuality that he's not going to budge from.
Anyway, for the last part of the question, my views on it -- I generally don't approve, I think fans should avoid interaction with creatives in that specific way -- asking for spoilers, demanding changes, showing them fanfiction when it's not asked for. Let them seek out that influence if they want it, but don't bring it to them. IMO it's made fandom, especially the younger side of fandom, rabidly entitled and a bit scary. There've been some posts about this on Tumblr, noting the trend now where shippers expect their ship to become canon and get very angry when it isn't. Along with that has come a trend of @ing creators to discuss the ship, seek confirmation, push for more, etc. I don't think it's morally wrong or anything, but I don't think it's a happy healthy mindset either. I think it just hurts the person making the demands a bit. It gets them riled up and hopeful, and then crushed with disappointment when things don't work out; in the worst cases that disappointment turns into anger, anger turns into harassment.
I think this is likely to happen with Stranger Things, from either the Byler fans (Mike Wheeler/Will Byers) or the Mileven fans (Mike/Eleven). Will is canonically gay and canonically in love with Mike, and there is compelling evidence from Byler fans that Mike may be closeted and may love Will back. But at the same time, Mileven has been THE canon pairing since S1. I think if Byler doesn't turn out canon, the Byler fans are going to go feral. And if Mileven breaks up for good, the Milevens are going to go nuts too, with a heavy dose of already-extant homophobia aimed at Noah Schnapp (Will's actor) and at Bylers in general. Because of the queer element, there's a lot more animosity between these two groups of shippers than there is between the other canon love triangle, Steve/Nancy vs. Nancy/Jonathan.
Just a note on Byler: Before S4 came out, I would've said Bylers are crazy anyway. But before S4, I also firmly believed Will was straight, lmfao. I didn't pick up on ANY of the signs, partially because I hadn't bothered to rewatch the show between seasons. My opinion now is that, IF we believe the Duffer Brothers are good writers, then they're 100% setting up Byler. If we believe they're iffy, shitty writers, then the Byler setup is accidental and not going to amount to anything. I hope we get the former, but my hope is small; I haven't actually been impressed by the Stranger Things writing since S2.
No matter what happens, my favorite character is Henry Creel (Jamie Campbell Bower), not Mike or Will, so I'll be okay XD Eleven is my second-favorite, and then Will; I also generally adore Dustin and Steve, and I earnestly ship Lucas/Max, and I like Mike in certain seasons, dislike him in others. But I've never been a huge fan of Mike/Eleven, and I've actively disliked it since S3, so I'm still rooting for the Bylers.
Fuck it, okay, look, I'm going to talk about Stranger Things. Forget the questionnaire, this is a Stranger Things blog now.
S1: When this came out, it fucking blew my mind. Instant-favorite. And that was shocking to me because I usually only really liked a show if I had a far-and-away favorite character AND someone to ship them with. With Stranger Things, I liked all the characters pretty much equally! I didn't ship anyone, but I liked all the pairings well enough; this was really a fandom-free TV experience for me, I didn't feel there were any holes that needed to be filled. Maybe I liked it so much because it featured small-town rural Indiana, and the Byers were poor. It matched up with my childhood really well, and had the horror elements I love.
S2: Not as good and cohesive as S1, but I still loved it; I think, like Harry Potter 1 and 2, it maintained enough of the initial charm that the holes were easy to overlook. Unlike many viewers, I really enjoyed the episode where Eleven goes on a Chicago adventure and meets other children from the lab. And Will gets so much of the spotlight here, which was surprising and amazing -- from S1, you don't really understand how good of an actor little Noah Schnapp is, he's hardly present.
S3: Worst season by far to me. Part of that is mere prejudice against summer -- my least favorite season. Part of it is a lack of interest in this season's central mystery, and part of it is the seeming character assassination of both Mike and Hopper. Mike in S1-2 is a spunky but gentle kid, a natural leader, emotional and caring. Mike in S3 is a douchebag, frankly. Similar story for Hopper -- in S1-2, he's a gruff but lovable guy, typical heart-of-gold character who makes mistakes but also grows over time. In S3 he regresses for no perceivable reason, loses all his growth from S2. It's done, transparently, to generate conflict between him and Eleven and make his "death" in the finale more of a gut-punch.
S4: Definitely kicked my love of the show back into overdrive. It does so many things correctly that the flaws (and there are many) don't matter to me. 1) It's the first season since S1 to have a compelling, tragic mystery at the center of it all. S1 was Will's disappearance; S2 is the strange supernatural death of Chrissy. 2) It introduces two new characters who are both very likable to me. One is Eddie, a 21-year-old senior and metalhead who gets blamed for Chrissy's death and has to go into hiding. The Satanic Panic theme of his scenes is catnip to me. The other character is Henry, the new big bad villain of the show. Jamie Campbell Bower plays him with an excellent gentleness. 3) Though the show is often categorized as a horror show, this is the first season where it really FEELS like horror. That's because it takes clear inspiration from Nightmare on Elm Street, including a cameo from Robert Englund as Henry's dad. Nightmare on Elm Street was my favorite horror series growing up, so again, catnip to me. And 4) There's a wonderful emotional arc with Max, and Sadie Sink may be the most talented of the child actors, at least at their current ages, so it's pulled off perfectly.
Now S5, the final season, is coming out, and I have to shake off my cool critical persona and admit that I've rewatched Vol. 1 three times and I spend every day whining that I have to wait till Christmas for Vol. 2. I can't even justify it, for the most part -- there were a LOT of bad moments that I cringed and groaned at in Vol. 1! The first time I watched it, I barely even looked up from my phone cuz it couldn't hold my attention. But here I am, longing for more... Worse yet, I've become so obsessed that I spend hours of each day on the Stranger Things subreddits, or watching interviews with the cast on Facebook, or watching Byler fan essays on YouTube.
Hopes for S5: I'm 100% certain that they wouldn't have hired Jamie Campbell Bower to play Henry if they intended for Henry to be a straight-up villain with no redeeming qualities. I'm certain that in Vol. 2 we'll get the sad backstory and the twist that makes us root for him. I'm bolstered by both Jamie Campbell Bower and Noah Schnapp making statements about Henry being "the most misunderstood villain" or generally sympathetic. WEIRDLY I'm in the minority here??? I don't know if I'm insane or if the Stranger Things fandom just skews very young, because most fandom spaces are thoroughly set against the possibility of a redemption arc -- they don't see the HEAVY signs at all. I mean, already, in S4, we got these signs: 1) he felt that his parents were horrible people, so he killed them. We're given a vague reason for this when it comes to his dad, who iirc killed a baby during the war, but the reason for his mom remains secret. 2) we're shown that he is imprisoned in Hawkins Lab, like Eleven; experimented on, like Eleven; and physically tortured (unlike Eleven). 3) He's played by Jamie Campbell Bower.
Now there's also a canon play out on Broadway and West End, with Henry as the main focus. Haven't seen it, but I watched a detailed plot description, and it's screaming, "DON'T HATE THIS GUY." Long story short: 8-year-old Henry disappears for 12 hours, much like Will disappeared in S1. When he comes back, he's troubled and has new psychokinetic powers, plus some mind-reading or emotion-reading abilities. His family is freaked out, they move to Hawkins, Indiana, and Henry comes into contact with some dark force there, which slowly takes him over and enacts violence against innocent animals and people. Henry attempts to fight this dark force off, but fails more and more as the play goes on. Finally, he kills his family under the influence of the dark force and is trapped inside Hawkins Lab, where he's used as an experiment, and his blood is used to create the numbered children we meet in S4, Eleven included.
The only thing I dislike about this play is that it gives Henry a female love interest. Make him gay! Make villains gay again!! I REQUIRE IT. Especially when we're so clearly paralleling Henry with Will. GAY.
Other hopes: I would genuinely flip my lid if Byler became canon. Like I said, I'm a late convert, didn't even think Will was gay until the show made it blatantly clear in S4. And I KNEW certain fans thought he was gay, I just thought they were crazy and had too much faith in the Duffer Bros' writing. Having been proven wrong once already, I was willing to reconsider Byler, and I got fully converted. There are far better apologists for Byler than me -- you can find them easily on YouTube -- but the big hurdle for me to overcome was the idea that the Duffer Brothers are good writing and are intentionally writing Mike as closeted across multiple seasons. The evidence that worked best to change my mind, therefore, was not diegetic evidence from the show but non-diegetic evidence that proved thoughtfulness and intent behind the scenes, e.g. interviews with costume designers, casting agents, etc. -- stuff that showed a great deal of thought WAS put into things, not just by the Duffer Brothers but by everyone involved.
(For example, I'd seen Bylers claiming that Mike's blue shirt in S4 is "Byler proof." Absolutely batshit to me. Their evidence was that his shirt has a sideways triangle over the pocket; the triangle is a queer symbol; and whenever he's in a scene with both Will and Eleven, his triangle-heart is pointing to Will, not to Eleven. Dismissed this completely until I saw an interview with a costume designer saying that she put a triangle on *Robin's* shirt to signify to the audience that she was gay.)
I was also swayed by evidence that *Will* had been intentionally written as gay, and that it wasn't just a last-minute decision because Noah Schnapp came out. The original pitch bible for Stranger Things says it outright in Will's character description; the original script for the middle-school dance in S2 says it again. And I was swayed again when someone reminded me that, in S1, when Will's corpse is pulled from the water, Mike runs home crying and David Bowie's "Heroes" plays. Sue me, I'm always gonna be swayed by David Bowie. It's not even Bowie's version, it's a Peter Gabriel cover... but that got me thinking, because I rewatched S1 this year with Rich and both of us were like, "Why the fuck would they use the Peter Gabriel cover instead of the original." Well, if music is how you defeat Vecna (established in S4) and Bowie is important to Will (established in S1), AND "Heroes" is a Mike & Will song, AND love gives you power (also S4), AND Will loves Mike (S4) ... then Heroes by David Bowie is ofc going to be the perfect song to play when Will has his showdown with Vecna...
See, all of this sounds batshit, don't worry, I know. I've swallowed the Kool-Aid and I'm okay with that. Watching these videos did remind me that I've had nascent Will/Mike thoughts consistently, since S1, and just kind of squashed them because I thought it would never happen. S4 was especially potent for me on the first watch, because there's conflict between Mike and Eleven -- she's upset with him because he can't say, "I love you," and he only manages to finally do so because Will gives him a beautiful painting and confesses his love for Mike ... but secretly. He pretends the painting is actually from El, and disguises his own thoughts and feelings for Mike as *El's* thoughts and feelings. So ... Mike is finally able to tell his girlfriend he loves her ... but only because of the inspiring lovely message that comes from his best friend's heart? Not from Eleven? (<.<) Mike Wheeler, I Know What You Are.
Now for my doubts:
1) As stated earlier, and most obviously, Mike and Eleven have been together since S1. Yes, they've had break-ups, but as far as we know, we're 4 episodes into the final season and they're still together. If Byler is going to become canon, a LOT of shit needs to happen real fast. Mike needs to realize he's gay; Mike and Eleven need to break up; Mike needs to realize he's in love with Will, etc.
2) In S4, there's a scene where Will asks Robin how she knew that her girlfriend Vicki wanted to date. Robin tells him there were signals -- snowballs that became an avalanche -- and Will gets a hopeful, thoughtful look on his face, then later tests out some flirting with Mike. Whether or not Mike responds to this flirting is iffy; in my opinion, nah, not really. Worse, we get a shot of Robin's face during this interaction. She's watching Mike and Will flirt, and she looks sad -- and it prompts her to give Will another speech, this time telling him about her first crush, which went terribly. The girl she liked wasn't even gay, and Robin was heartbroken. She got over it by watching old home videos of herself as a little kid, and was moved by how free and confident she was back then. To me, that reads pretty clearly and depressingly as, "He's not into you, kid, get over it."
Counterpoints to these doubts:
1) 18 months have passed since S4. I mean, in the show, not IRL. We don't know what's happened in those 18 months. We do know that, last season, Will seemed to accept that Mike was straight and didn't love him. He even transformed his own Big Love Confession into a confession from El, and helped repair Mike and El's relationship when he could have easily encouraged Mike to break up with her. Now, suddenly, Will is hopeful that Mike could like him back and is looking for signs, actively flirting with him. Some fans speculate that Mike and El broke up during those 18 months, and the show just hasn't revealed it to us yet. If so, that could speed-run things significantly. Instead of going through a long process of "Mike realizes he's queer -> Mike breaks up with El -> Mike gets with Will" we'd have "Audience realizes Mike and El aren't together -> it's because Mike's queer -> specifically he's queer for Will", and that type of reveal could take all of 5 minutes.
2) Other Byler fans have pointed out that you don't do a slow-burn rejection. If Byler isn't meant to happen, then why are they suddenly establishing that Will has hope, when at the end of S4, he had accepted there was no chance at all? If Will's storyline this season is meant to be, "He accepts that Mike doesn't have feelings for him and accepts himself," then why not start where we left off, with "He accepts that Mike doesn't have feelings for him and is actively encouraging him to be with El," instead of complicating that journey with, "Suddenly for no apparent reason he thinks he has a chance and is trying to sabotage Mike's relationship with El"? Plus, evidently my reading of the Mike/Will + Robin scene isn't necessarily aligned with the script; I haven't looked at the script myself but I've seen other people claiming that Robin's expression is explained in the script, and it's not "sad because Mike is clearly straight," but ... some other thing that I don't remember right now, but leaves room for hope.
All of this hinges on the Duffer Brothers actually being skilled writers, and I'm not convinced of that. Byler believers tend to claim that every supposed flaw in the show is actually a secret Byler hint. In some cases I think they may be right -- but there are plenty of flaws in this show that don't come down to ships. (Hopper's character arc is a big one; generally bad/cheesy dialogue is another, but you can be bad at dialogue and good at overarching plots and character arcs. Another bone I have to pick is that last season, Max was a major character with actual depth and an arc of her own; this season, so far, she's just exposition. Major downgrade.)
When it comes specifically to Mike, though, they may have a point, one that I find really compelling. I'd already noticed that Mike's character changes in S3. That's when he and El officially start dating, and Mike seems to become a douche overnight; this continues in S4 to such an extent that I was shocked Will liked him. How can you be in love with a guy like that? And then Will gives a big speech about WHY he loves Mike, and like ... yes, it described S1-2 Mike perfectly, but Mike hasn't been like that for a very long time...
The Byler theory is that Mike is at his worst when dating El because he's putting on a straightsona. He's not really himself; he's playing the role of a Straight Male according to the 1980s. That's why he's toxic, it's why he ignores his friends and acts shitty to everyone. And, despite his seeming obsession with El, he's still a bad boyfriend ... because he doesn't really love her that way. The way he treats her contrasts sharply with the gentle, caring way he treats Will -- he's awkward and mean to Will when El is in the room, awkward and mean to El when Will is in the room. But when he's alone with Will, he's apologetic and sweet. When he's alone with El, he's ... still awkward, still mean.
I initially put that down to bad writing and even bad acting on Finn Wolfhard's part, which perplexed me a bit because I've always thought he's a really strong actor -- but, admittedly, the teen years are awkward for everybody, and especially for child stars who spent their preteen years onscreen. It's hard to remember how to act when you're going through that self-conscious stage. I wondered if maybe he had less sentimentality for the show than the other child stars, maybe even hated it and therefore wasn't motivated to put in any effort -- and then I was surprised and confused again when I watched some interviews and saw all the child stars unanimously declaring Finn the most sentimental of them.
It's a tough position. As a more-critical-than-average fan, I can't blindly trust the Duffer Brothers. As a Henry fan, I'm more concerned with his character arc than any of the kids, and as an Eleven fan, I don't like her relationship with Mike but can't reallyyyy think of a good place for her arc to go. I think I'm just not a fan of Straight Eleven, full-stop. The Byler ship has great appeal for me, and El/Kali has some appeal as well, but I do unfortunately see S3-5 Eleven as fully straight, not queer at all. Once she grew her hair out it was all Joever.
Anyway, the tl;dr here is that I'm fully down the Byler rabbithole and I'm making it all of youz problem. It feels like a Public Service Announcement: SURPRISE, this Internet friend has been secretly a Stranger Things fan the whole time, and is now even more insane about it. I'm even half-assed plotting a Byler fanfic, and like I said, they're not even my favorite characters T__T
